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Post by tplayer47 on Oct 9, 2017 23:21:38 GMT
Whitelist The server's pretty desolate. I understand that at the time of posting this, it is currently Monday night and people are dealing with school or work. However, over the weekend I think the most number of people on was 12. Personally, I have a handful of friends who are interested in the server, but are ultimately scared away by the Whitelist. Not solely because of the need to write an application, but because they were worried about something that I personally think is happening right now; the server being empty and devoid of life. Sure, there's a group of people that hang out with one another, but that's all there is. A single group of people, and no variation, in a schema that REWARDS being different and varying from the typical wastelander town. What should be a stretch of desert with various communities and little groups of different sub-factions is instead a handful of NCR troops and wastelanders in a single town. Obviously, this is going to grow very boring very quickly. Why do I think the Whitelist will fix this? Well, as I said, I think people are discouraged to join the server due to it. At best, no whitelist will bring in variation in the playerbase and breathe roleplay and life into the server. At worst, only a handful of new people join. Either-way, it's a win-win. There's already a large number of active admins that can easily root out the obvious minges out or to teach the new people that will join.
Applications There's a lot of guns floating around. Hear me out, I understand that Fallout has a lot of guns in it, and I fully agree that people should start the server armed with a pistol or something, but I've seen people with armor and rifles running around. I feel like the applications should be a little more strict, and while I agree that people should spawn in with a pistol or similar, I definitely don't think people should have an entire suit of armor or rifles. At that point, there's no point to go out and better themselves. Why upgrade yourself at all if you've already got everything you wanted from day one?
My biggest gripe is that whitelist. I feel like taking it off would have no penalty or disadvantage to the server, it would only seek to improve it and bring new faces in. If people are worried about minges or hackers, that's why you have an admin team.
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Post by zetamale on Oct 9, 2017 23:27:06 GMT
truer words have never been spoken, bro. +support
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Post by Merpkiller on Oct 9, 2017 23:32:14 GMT
I do agree on the matter of lenient applications in terms to items and (sometimes) skills. But interested in the opinions of Lighty .
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Post by Lighty on Oct 10, 2017 0:10:41 GMT
I reviewed all of the approved applications. I found 3 instances of something higher than a pistol being requested, and 2 instances of armor that has some metal protection. Each weapon was either a hunting rifle, or repeater. Each armor was reinforced leather armor. Excluding NCR characters and special event-esque characters, this is the only weaponry/armor that has been accepted that would be considered "Above starter level".
As for factions or different groups, the opprotunity is out there. It's been stated that if you want to make a group, there are applicable means to help someone organize it. Right now the only group is Jtod's Metalheads.
As for removing the whitelist or not, I'd like to give it some time before doing that. I'd also appreciate it if you gave the server more than 3 days before declaring it dead.
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Post by tplayer47 on Oct 10, 2017 0:14:06 GMT
As I said in the original post, I feel as if no armor or anything above a pistol should be allowed, personally.
Factions and groups won't exactly take off with the amount of people on the server. Chances are you'd be the only person in it, maybe along with a friend or two, and that's hardly a faction. NCR comes to mind, myself and two others are the only people that get on.
Also, I never even said the server was dead once. I've only said that it has a very low pop. Why wait for the Whitelist?
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Post by Lighty on Oct 10, 2017 0:27:08 GMT
Considering that reinforced leather armor is more or less just sticking junk metal onto leather, I don't really think it's to far fetched for someone to start off with it.
The characters that started with some sort of rifle are in some mostly combat-esque role, such as mercenary or bounty hunter. I'm sure they have plenty of room for improvement from the stock hunting rifle.
I have a problem with the reasoning that if someone doesn't/can't go through the trouble of applying to be whitelisted, then they could organize into a group effectively. I'm very doubtful about that happening.
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Post by jtod on Oct 10, 2017 0:50:54 GMT
I reviewed all of the approved applications. I found 3 instances of something higher than a pistol being requested, and 2 instances of armor that has some metal protection. Each weapon was either a hunting rifle, or repeater. Each armor was reinforced leather armor. Excluding NCR characters and special event-esque characters, this is the only weaponry/armor that has been accepted that would be considered "Above starter level". As for factions or different groups, the opprotunity is out there. It's been stated that if you want to make a group, there are applicable means to help someone organize it. Right now the only group is Jtod's Metalheads. As for removing the whitelist or not, I'd like to give it some time before doing that. I'd also appreciate it if you gave the server more than 3 days before declaring it dead. 1. I feel as though the whitelist is, for now, a good thing. I'd rather have a small and tightknit server than a large server of shitbirds and edgelords. While we could go out and slowly weed them out as we see them, I feel it's best to stop them at the gate with applications. 2. Hunting rifles, repeaters, and leather / metal armor are fine in my eyes. That's just me. Combat armor and higher tier guns is when I start to become hesitant. 3. I feel as though the NCR should not all be given service rifles. Troopers not at the dam would most likely not be prioritized when it comes to handing out guns.
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Post by tplayer47 on Oct 10, 2017 1:08:50 GMT
jtod 1. I feel as though the whitelist is, for now, a good thing. I'd rather have a small and tightknit server than a large server of shitbirds and edgelords. While we could go out and slowly weed them out as we see them, I feel it's best to stop them at the gate with applications. That is exactly what we have right now. 2. Hunting rifles, repeaters, and leather / metal armor are fine in my eyes. That's just me. Combat armor and higher tier guns is when I start to become hesitant.
3. I feel as though the NCR should not all be given service rifles. Troopers not at the dam would most likely not be prioritized when it comes to handing out guns.
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Post by Lighty on Oct 10, 2017 1:12:05 GMT
If you can't hold a discussion without using overplayed memes, then I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread.
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Post by tplayer47 on Oct 10, 2017 1:14:29 GMT
Go for it, you're obviously not going to be interested in considering my ideas.
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Post by jtod on Oct 10, 2017 1:23:12 GMT
1. That is exactly what we have right now. 2.
3. 1. Is that an issue? 2. This is well known. A 30-06 can blow someone apart. I'm not familiar with Mexican gun laws, but I know that in the United States, at-least in my area, nearly everyone and their mother owns at-least one rifle. A bolt action rifle is way more common than an assault rifle. People can still be wounded, even with an anti-material rifle. They'll just be missing an arm or leg. 3. They are not treated as such ingame on the server. Not once have I seen a player roleplay his gun jamming at a critical moment or even acknowledging that his gun would be somewhat inaccurate at long range when mass produced. The NCR is spread thin, and is required to supply its insanely large military which is ever-growing. While they have the Gunrunners mass producing weapons, I find it hard to believe that every soldier would be equipped in a post apocalyptic setting. The New Vegas Wiki states that the NCR use other weapons in shortages, and I am fairly confident that it's mentioned in-game. You're giving 4-5 players what essentially equates to M16A1s and handing out bolt-actions and break-open shotguns to the rest of the population. It doesn't matter when they're made. Additionally, source: fallout.wikia.com/wiki/New_California_Republic_Army
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Post by tplayer47 on Oct 10, 2017 1:29:38 GMT
1. Yes. The server is a tight-knit community of edgelords and shitbirds.
2. How in the world is any of what you just said relevant?
3. I agree with what you said at first. However, you believe the military faction shouldn't be outfitted, but are perfectly okay with giving wastelanders hunting rifles, which are VASTLY superior to what the NCR would get in the first place?
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Post by Lighty on Oct 10, 2017 1:32:05 GMT
Just to clarify, your ideas are to get rid of whitelisting, and/or be more strict about what you consider low tier/starter equipment.
I've put forth my interpretation of what I think is a fair idea of starter gear, and for the most part, I agree with you. I've even proven that, by showing that out of 20+ applications, only three weapons that weren't pistols were approved. That's 15%. I don't think that's big enough to warrant a concern.
As for the whitelisting, as I said, no matter what anyone's opinion is on the current players, I still want to give it more than just three days.
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Post by jtod on Oct 10, 2017 1:32:06 GMT
1. Yes. The server is a tight-knit community of edgelords and shitbirds. 2. How in the world is any of what you just said relevant? 3. I agree with what you said at first. However, you don't believe the military faction shouldn't be outfitted, but are perfectly okay with giving wastelanders hunting rifles, which are VASTLY superior to what the NCR would get in the first place? 1. If that's what you think. 2. You seemed to take issue with the large size of caliber. 3. You must have misread what I said. Please re-read it, and then I will debate with you on this.
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Post by Cookie on Oct 10, 2017 2:17:24 GMT
Alright hold on let's go through some stuff here. 1) The talk of calibers, guns, and anti-mats:I want to clarify something here - the idea that an anti-mat would simply 'wound' someone is enough to send me frothing at the mouth. It is an ANTI MATERIAL RIFLE - if it hits someone, it will tear off limbs and the shock alone from that is likely enough to kill them, not to mention the bloodloss that comes after - this is an issue that I see on *ALOT* of servers where admins will do a sniper event where said sniper is sporting a .50 cal and 'wounding' people with it. As I had already stated in one of my prior posts (i'm sturmspook) through Tplayer, .308 rounds, the .45-70 govt., and other rounds that are found in what you call the lower tier weapons are enough to kill someone (or something) quite easily. Unless you're deciding to use the stats from the guns instead of what it would actually do to somebody. The reason that people see things like automatics and assault rifles as higher tier comes in the fact that they are able to be loaded quickly, have larger magazines, still sport the accuracy of a rifle, and can fire fully automatic - however a big issue comes in when you start throwing SMGs, pistols, and even carbines into that higher tier category just because they're automatic. Using a nine mil SMG with an event badboy lets you actually injure people without outright killing them, or even an assault rifle. There also comes in the issue of people thinking that shotguns aren't very powerful, when in reality when loaded with 00, slugs, or even buckshot they're going to kill someone without armor, even if it isn't immediately, and they typically have a much longer range and not as big of a spread as one expects- but I haven't seen much in relation to shotguns on the server to really comment too much on that. The fact that you see losing a limb as an acceptable, common injury in events is also rather worrying - that's something that cripples a character, and prosthetic limbs aren't exactly super common in the world of Fallout (that we see mentioned) other than synth type stuff, which opens up the doorway to edgy anime characters who have two bionic arms that are strong enough to crush a watermelon or some shit like that. However, so long as we use slightly advanced prosthetics of what we have nowadays (i.e normal, slightly clunky limbs that get better and better each day), you can typically avoid that trope. One big thing to keep in mind throughout all of this, even if it's the *ONLY* thing you pick up from this: Guns are lethal, no matter how you treat them.Of course, if one is good enough at events, you can play on this fact in your events to increase how fun they are - reward people for using cover or making a bold move, punish those who think that, even with their armor, they can just walk into gunfire without punishment. You can still injure people without removing limbs by using grazes, or having rounds impact with their cover and send splinters into them, or even have them get shot in non-vital areas (though much like any injury, it's still going to fucking hurt). You can have the raiders actually play the part of raiders - favoring melee weapons and being inaccurate as all hell (save for maybe the odd marksmen) and not using cover or holding any self preservation, while you may bring in actually trained mercenaries in an event - a smaller team who is actually trained and challenges the players in a new way.
Anyways, moving on to the next thing;
2) Armor
That metal-leather armor you start off with is useless except for fighting mutants, wildlife, or people with melee weapons - it won't do anything against firearms except birdshot (which can be stopped by a thick enough window in all honesty) and MAYBE buckshot, if one's lucky enough.
Combat armor is military issue in fallout and is the best of the best, not to even mention the mk.2 combat armor one can get in New Vegas - it should be reserved and expensive, as it is rather hardy, though like most other armors (save power armor), the chest plate could likely only stop a handful of rifle rounds.
There is an in-between to these, however - actual, modern body armor that comes in. I won't pretend to be an expert of body armor, but... Read this for a simple graph of body armor. It doesn't have to be as simple as 'you get a vest...' and you're able to get creative with is, as armor comes in many different forms and shapes - but this allows you to hand out armor that doesn't give full body protection (i.e combat armor or power armor) but still lets you actually hit players in events without killing them but instead injuring them in the form of cracked ribs, partial penetrations, etc.
I won't even talk about power armor. Fuck fallout 4 power armor and what it means for RP where they made it nigh-on indestructible, and new vegas power armor always has a big argument behind it - the biggest thing I can ask to remember with that is that power armor was made to be a mobile weapons platform to help support squads without the need of moving a tank/weapons team into place. It is not indestructible, and even while in power armor one should still use cover to avoid getting their armor penetrated. A few .308 rounds will make short work of a t-45 or even t-51b chest plate.
3) Jtod's confusing response, whitelisting, and events
Just getting this out of the way, Jtod made a post saying this;
. "I feel as though the whitelist is, for now, a good thing. I'd rather have a small and tightknit server than a large server of shitbirds and edgelords. While we could go out and slowly weed them out as we see them, I feel it's best to stop them at the gate with applications. "
After Tplayer brought up something about it,
"1. I feel as though the whitelist is, for now, a good thing. I'd rather have a small and tightknit server than a large server of shitbirds and edgelords. While we could go out and slowly weed them out as we see them, I feel it's best to stop them at the gate with applications. *gif here* That is exactly what we have right now."
Jtod responded shortly thereafter with...
"1. Is that an issue?"
Personally, it is an issue - you yourself said it was an issue and something you wanted to avoid, but now that it's pointed out that it is something that's happening on the server currently, you act like it isn't really that big of an issue... So your standing is confusing, to say the least.
Whitelisted servers do work, though it typically works best for settings that are focused on everyone being on the same side and going through missions together - Fallout is not one of those settings, especially in the form of Fallout that is currently being run that is focused on a town. You're going to quickly run into an issue of lack of conflict as the only two factions are 'town' and 'NCR', and even then both are lacking in numbers to actually do anything dedicated to their faction/side. There isn't a big enough population for the formation of raider gangs, a smaller settlement, or separate player factions - these are things that typically keep fallout servers alive, faction interaction where they are focused on gaining power and simply surviving.
As for the events... So far, It's been pretty.... Odd. Part of the big focus on Fallout (especially in the New Vegas setting) is the wild, untamed West, survival, and a brewing war or conflict where it's hard to stay neutral for long - this can come in the form of raider gangs that are antagonizing a town, massive groups of mutants, sending scav parties out to gather resources to keep the frontier town alive and well and working on building up the infrastructure of the town, instead of having it start off with a fully stocked doctor, functioning radio tower, and working gate.
I can't say I'm a fan of the alien event - or aliens in fallout in general. It was a fun little easter egg thing to find in the singleplayer games, however having it be a plot-point in server (or even having it be something that happens at all) is kind of disheartening - it should at most have been a crashed ship that one or two people stumble upon and interact with but nobody else believes.
The wasteland is a wild and wacky place, and event staff should keep that in mind when making their events - however, keep in mind that Fallout still manages to keep itself grounded, even with its silly moments. A server-wide alien spaceship event is beyond the levels of silly.
As for 'shitbirds and edgy characters' - I hate to tell you this, but they're gunna come no matter what you do. And that's not necessarily a bad thing - characters who don't have a bit of edgy to them aren't interesting characters, the issue comes in when they're constantly brooding and so focused on being unique that they stand out like a protagonist/anime character - and people with different thoughts and opinions on things can lead to IC conflict as one group of people thinks things should be run differently as opposed to another and lead to conflict that admins don't even have to take part in, other than monitoring for metagame/bullshittery.
There is another issue in that some admin characters seem a bit... Silly. I don't mean any offence by this, but a character with a -jetpack- (something that is restricted to power armor, massive as FUCK, and experimental in fallout 4) throwing around plasma grenades and flashbangs in the middle of events can lead to some rage among players as they feel they are being powergamed for the sake of an event, and can even leave a bad impression of the server in those who see it on the forums.
That's really all I got for now. I realize that it probably won't really matter if you're incredibly set on your ways of how you want to run it, but after being involved in an event where a group of raiders came up from behind the party with power armor and miniguns and *forced* the players to retreat or die, I don't exactly feel the want to get on server right now.
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